Recent News of the Texas Shootings

Yea i suspect its all over the nation by now. i got scared cuz i live there. I got released early from school, around 2, and got home all fine, then my dad calls from work, which is at fort hood, and asks me to watch news about a shooter and find out whats happening cuz they dont have a tv in his work place. for 6 hours my dad and thousands were locked down at the base, tons including us worrying bout our loved ones, and getting mixed stories like they said the shooter was shot dead, only later to be reported to be alive and stable condition. Shit like this causes more shit to happen, like his name being Malik Hassan, which willl probably make many ppl tomorrow see islamic or muslim ppl as bad ppl and take a stronger tone of racism

"which willl probably make many ppl tomorrow see islamic or muslim ppl as bad ppl and take a stronger tone of racism"

im confused how you cant....

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Originally Posted by Demzilla

"which willl probably make many ppl tomorrow see islamic or muslim ppl as bad ppl and take a stronger tone of racism"

im confused how you cant....

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really? The actions of one person, who was obviously mentally unstable, or even a group of people can hardly be used to judge an entire religion--let alone an entire race, as not all Arabic peoples are Muslim and not all Muslims are Arabic (think North and Sub-Saharan Africa, Eastern Europeans, people from Southeast Asia, etc)...would you have said the same thing if he was white?

I'm always amazed that people are shocked by these outbursts of violence given the context: a site of pure violence (mechanized violence in this case), a murky never-ending war on an ill-defined enemy, poor psychiatric care and a patient that obviously needed it...

also, this guy was an american citizen born in virginia who had actually never left the country before. and as of yet it's not confirmed that he's muslim, but everybody has assumed he is because of his name.

there will be backlash against muslims and middle easterners over this for sure, but for the same reason there was backlash towards asians after the virginia tech shootings, and goth kids in trench coats after columbine. it's a human gut reaction. people are hurt and they want retribution. facts don't matter much when compared to grief.

in all honesty...

if he was white id still feel the same way...

the thing is..
i dont look at race...
i dont care enough to worry about what fuckin color/race/religion your stupidity is coming from..
im honest....

i was agreeing with anjos comment..

he stated...
"which willl probably make"
meaning an influence....
i said...
"im confused how you cant..."
meaning i agree that it would influence others perspective of religions and race..

now im not gonna rebuttal your statement because you misunderstood me...
but i will say i agree....

oh i wasn't disagreeing with you, i was just trying to add to it, i guess. my phrasing might have been wrong. there will be backlash and i also understand why. it's the wrong backlash, but what kind is right?

no i was talking to bene..
you just commented before i could see it....

and i agree...
your gonna get a backlash no matter what religion/race....

you cant have yougioh without pokemon right?....

It actually has been confirmed that he's Muslim. They've interviewed people who attended Mosque with him in MD.

He also got a poor performance report from the last unit he was attached to before getting to Ft. Hood.

Also.. I think it's an extremely uneducated viewpoint to say that a Military Base is a site of "mechanized violence." Soldiers don't have access to weapons on base except during training and even then it's only at the shooting range that they have live ammunition.

This shooter used handguns that were not Military Issue... as in he purchased them as a Civilian.

Oh.. and he, himself, specialized in psychiatry. I'm sure in advancing to the rank of Major in the field of Psychiatry.. he knew exactly what to do to get himself help. This isn't a case where therapy would've made a difference.

He had never been in combat. He was about to deploy to Afghanistan. He had a history of voicing a STRONG opposition to the War in Iraq and the War in Afghanistan. I don't think this was likely a situation where he suffered from PTSD or any form of a psychotic break.

Oh... and My wife is stationed at Ft. Hood and was very close to the area where the incident started.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Demzilla

in all honesty...

if he was white id still feel the same way...

the thing is..
i dont look at race...
i dont care enough to worry about what fuckin color/race/religion your stupidity is coming from..
im honest....

i was agreeing with anjos comment..

he stated...
"which willl probably make"
meaning an influence....
i said...
"im confused how you cant..."
meaning i agree that it would influence others perspective of religions and race..

now im not gonna rebuttal your statement because you misunderstood me...
but i will say i agree....

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I understand--I misunderstood.

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Originally Posted by jest118

It actually has been confirmed that he's Muslim. They've interviewed people who attended Mosque with him in MD.

He also got a poor performance report from the last unit he was attached to before getting to Ft. Hood.

Also.. I think it's an extremely uneducated viewpoint to say that a Military Base is a site of "mechanized violence." Soldiers don't have access to weapons on base except during training and even then it's only at the shooting range that they have live ammunition.

This shooter used handguns that were not Military Issue... as in he purchased them as a Civilian.

Oh.. and he, himself, specialized in psychiatry. I'm sure in advancing to the rank of Major in the field of Psychiatry.. he knew exactly what to do to get himself help. This isn't a case where therapy would've made a difference.

He had never been in combat. He was about to deploy to Afghanistan. He had a history of voicing a STRONG opposition to the War in Iraq and the War in Afghanistan. I don't think this was likely a situation where he suffered from PTSD or any form of a psychotic break.

Oh... and My wife is stationed at Ft. Hood and was very close to the area where the incident started.

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Was there any doubt that he was a Muslim? I don't see what it matters one way or the other...

That's a pretty bold diagnosis based on pretty scant evidence; I have a BA in psyche and did pre-med (didn't end up going to med)--not that it makes that much of a difference, but I do have some knowledge to share. Suffice it to say, the fact that he was a psychiatrist doesn't mean he can accurately diagnose himself-->medical professionals must rely on other professionals for their care and treatment just like everyone else. Your understanding of psychiatry and psychiatric care is quite simplistic--the subjective nature of the diagnostic process makes accurate self-diagnosis near impossible. And in terms of access to care, the Armed forces in general and the Army in particular have a very well documented problem with providing psychiatric care for active duty soldiers and veterans alike. If you need links from mainstream media and academic sources, I can provide them.
Furthermore, normal people do not participate in mass shootings--it doesn't matter if they strongly oppose the war or not--not everybody who opposes abortion bombs clinics and/or murders doctors, it takes a certain kind of person to do something like that. Its interesting that you posit his opposition as the cause of his violence, but my guess is that he was a disturbed man way before this particular war--this kind of violence is never spontaneous. However, your reductionist view of the situation is characteristic of the military culture regarding psychiatric patients in general.
Finally, and after this I am done with this topic, it was my understanding that Ft. Hood was home to one of the largest Cavalry divisions, along with a large armored division; tanks/APCs/etc="mechanized violence"...also, "psychotic break" is not a medical term--what your referring is an experience of primary psychosis which generally fits a pattern of symptoms in a patient; not a sudden spur of the moment "break" with reality or whatever...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jest118

It actually has been confirmed that he's Muslim. They've interviewed people who attended Mosque with him in MD.

He also got a poor performance report from the last unit he was attached to before getting to Ft. Hood.

Also.. I think it's an extremely uneducated viewpoint to say that a Military Base is a site of "mechanized violence." Soldiers don't have access to weapons on base except during training and even then it's only at the shooting range that they have live ammunition.

This shooter used handguns that were not Military Issue... as in he purchased them as a Civilian.

Oh.. and he, himself, specialized in psychiatry. I'm sure in advancing to the rank of Major in the field of Psychiatry.. he knew exactly what to do to get himself help. This isn't a case where therapy would've made a difference.

He had never been in combat. He was about to deploy to Afghanistan. He had a history of voicing a STRONG opposition to the War in Iraq and the War in Afghanistan. I don't think this was likely a situation where he suffered from PTSD or any form of a psychotic break.

Oh... and My wife is stationed at Ft. Hood and was very close to the area where the incident started.

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yeah. ppl are saying dumbass ideas like he did it cuz hes muslim and hed have to fight his ppl if he deployed. really it had nothing to do with any terrorism plot or like you said Jest about ptsd cuz he never deployed yet in the first place. also the alleged blog of martyrdom is equal to suicide bombings mite be false. the accounts name is indeed NidalHassan but it is a common name as told by reprters like how smith or jones is common. this morning i looked at it and came across the comments below which had one from the author, saying it was postedt 9 hours ago then, which would have been 11pm yesterday. that would not have made sense due to the fact he still is right now on a ventilator at a hospital in stable condition. also Jest yea my dad works at the honeywell co building on post and he called after the shooting started asking me to see on the news whats happening so far. we watched the boradcast till they said it was ok to leave and were relieved

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Originally Posted by bene317

Was there any doubt that he was a Muslim? I don't see what it matters one way or the other...

That's a pretty bold diagnosis based on pretty scant evidence; I have a BA in psyche and did pre-med (didn't end up going to med)--not that it makes that much of a difference, but I do have some knowledge to share. Suffice it to say, the fact that he was a psychiatrist doesn't mean he can accurately diagnose himself-->medical professionals must rely on other professionals for their care and treatment just like everyone else. Your understanding of psychiatry and psychiatric care is quite simplistic--the subjective nature of the diagnostic process makes accurate self-diagnosis near impossible. And in terms of access to care, the Armed forces in general and the Army in particular have a very well documented problem with providing psychiatric care for active duty soldiers and veterans alike. If you need links from mainstream media and academic sources, I can provide them.
Furthermore, normal people do not participate in mass shootings--it doesn't matter if they strongly oppose the war or not--not everybody who opposes abortion bombs clinics and/or murders doctors, it takes a certain kind of person to do something like that. Its interesting that you posit his opposition as the cause of his violence, but my guess is that he was a disturbed man way before this particular war--this kind of violence is never spontaneous. However, your reductionist view of the situation is characteristic of the military culture regarding psychiatric patients in general.
Finally, and after this I am done with this topic, it was my understanding that Ft. Hood was home to one of the largest Cavalry divisions, along with a large armored division; tanks/APCs/etc="mechanized violence"...also, "psychotic break" is not a medical term--what your referring is an experience of primary psychosis which generally fits a pattern of symptoms in a patient; not a sudden spur of the moment "break" with reality or whatever...

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You misunderstood a lot of what I said.

You suggest that a Doctor would have trouble finding another Doctor to treat him, simply because they're Military.

It's well within the nature of man to kill for his own beliefs. The concept of War disagrees with your statement in that regard.

Your info on Ft. Hood is dated to say the least.

I don't feign to know Psychiatry. I do know that a man does not have to have mental problems to do something as extreme as what this man did.




Yeah Anjo.. there's a lot of speculation. I've seen and heard of Men and Women doing a lot of things to get out of deploying or to come home early. Never seen or heard of anything on such a large scale as this though. It's truly a terrible thing.

"I do know that a man does not have to have mental problems to do something as extreme as what this man did."

Other than being a completely ridiculous thing to say...
I would like to know, how you know this?

You misunderstood a lot of what I said.

Perhaps...

You suggest that a Doctor would have trouble finding another Doctor to treat him, simply because they're Military.

No, go back and re-read; you suggested that a doctor should be able to diagnose him/herself, I suggested that such an idea was based on a simplistic understanding of the diagnostic process; also, the Army has a poor history of providing psychiatric care for active duty soldiers, reservists and veterans--this is very well documented over a span of several years by several sources.

It's well within the nature of man to kill for his own beliefs. The concept of War disagrees with your statement in that regard.

The 'nature of man' is an extremely broad and meaningless phrase, define the terms in the context of your argument otherwise you're just spouting cliches. The psychology of violence in war has little to do with personal beliefs--I would be happy to provide you with some authors if you want. But suffice it to say, 'war' is not simply a collection of individuals fighting for their own personal beliefs...Furthermore you completely ignored my argument, but whatever, selective reading ftw!

Your info on Ft. Hood is dated to say the least.

Fair enough. So have the 1st Cavalry division and the 3rd Armored Cavalry regiment moved? Honestly I don't keep up with those kinds of things...

I don't feign to know Psychiatry. I do know that a man does not have to have mental problems to do something as extreme as what this man did.

But that doesn't mean you won't make a lot of broad generalizations about it, right?
So basically mass shooters and murders/serial killers are normal people? lol

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Originally Posted by Embers BLS

"I do know that a man does not have to have mental problems to do something as extreme as what this man did."

Other than being a completely ridiculous thing to say...
I would like to know, how you know this?

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when you live right next door to fort hood and you have loved ones and friends work on post who were locked down, you get the info right away. he was a trained physciatrist and worked here for 6 years at our military hospital Darnall and people have said nothing of the sort of mental issues. NEighbors, friends, family, even co-workers state he was a real cool calm guy who simply opposed the war.

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Originally Posted by Anjo606

when you live right next door to fort hood and you have loved ones and friends work on post who were locked down, you get the info right away. he was a trained physciatrist and worked here for 6 years at our military hospital Darnall and people have said nothing of the sort of mental issues. NEighbors, friends, family, even co-workers state he was a real cool calm guy who simply opposed the war.

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I think what embers was suggesting was that jest made a very broad claim--stating essential that normal people can commit acts of mass murder--that is not backed up in any way; it is a pretty ridiculous statement (and I don't mean that as an insult to jest) when examined closely, by that logic otherwise normal people wake up one day and become cannibal serial killers giving no suggestion prior that anything was wrong--could by my great aunt Eloise today, could be you or me tomorrow.
Speaking from my knowledge base, these incidents are never singular and can be seen as the sort of apex of a patients pattern of symptoms. In other words, people don't just 'snap' and start killing people--it is a drawn out process that with the proper intervention can be prevented; it doesn't always work though. His exterior demeanor was obviously deceptive--a trained professional therapist might have been able to recognize in him some signs that all was not well. This tragedy didn't have to happen, and perhaps with the proper preventative care and oversight it might not have. Jest seems to think that this man's beliefs about the war were the cause of his violence, which to me is the equivalence of sticking one's head in the sand and outsourcing serious problems within the military medical culture to a group (anti-war folks) with whose politics he doesn't agree. I find this extremely counter-productive.
I am glad to hear that both your guys' family members that were on the base are okay.

Bene hit it on the head. As sick as it seems, i did a lot of study of mental patterns of serial killers in college. Bundy, Ridgway.. just to name a couple 'famous' ones, were described by several people near to them as 'a nice guy/very normal/got along with everyone/never thought they could do such a thing'

The point is, people with these kind of mental issues do not just present one day, spur of the moment. Especially in today's world, it is foolish to think that someone with this type of mentally cannot learn to cope and hide what is going on within themselves. it's a mentally born of dark, prolonged secrecy.

Don't get me wrong either, i'm glad your families are okay, and i can't imagine what they went through.

Judging by Jest and Bene's ability to explain what they are thinking, thoroughly, this allows for an intelligent discussion. Which i enjoy.

I hope you don't take anything I say as an attack at you personally. As it is not intended in that way at all. Just as people from different perspectives sharing what they know, and learning a bit in the process.

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Originally Posted by Embers BLS

"I do know that a man does not have to have mental problems to do something as extreme as what this man did."

Other than being a completely ridiculous thing to say...
I would like to know, how you know this?

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Audie Murphy killed hundreds of enemy soldiers single handedly throughout the course of WW2. After the war, he lived a very normal life.

He's never been considered as someone who has had any type of Mental Illness. He's the US Most Decorated Soldier of All Time. He is literally THE American Hero.

There's also many accounts of "normal" people doing extraordinary things. Often times whether those people are Hero's or Psycho's depends on the point of view of those around them.

Most times... "Normal" is not normal at all. It's just a term used to identify what is social acceptable. You do not have to be mentally unstable to accomplish extreme feats. You need only have the conviction to follow through with what you feel must be done to accomplish your goal.

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Originally Posted by bene317

No, go back and re-read; you suggested that a doctor should be able to diagnose him/herself, I suggested that such an idea was based on a simplistic understanding of the diagnostic process; also, the Army has a poor history of providing psychiatric care for active duty soldiers, reservists and veterans--this is very well documented over a span of several years by several sources.

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No, I didn't. I said he knows what steps to take to get himself help. Meaning he knows where to go and who to talk to. I said nothing about diagnosing himself. And documentation does not show you the real picture. I can drive around the base and take pictures of the various signs posted everywhere detailing what numbers to call if you're feeling suicidal, messages encouraging soldiers to buckle up, not to drink and drive, etc.. etc.. Let alone the fact that the man worked with other Psychiatrists. I can't possibly believe that it would have been difficult for him to set up an appointment extremely easily.

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Originally Posted by bene317

The 'nature of man' is an extremely broad and meaningless phrase, define the terms in the context of your argument otherwise you're just spouting cliches. The psychology of violence in war has little to do with personal beliefs--I would be happy to provide you with some authors if you want. But suffice it to say, 'war' is not simply a collection of individuals fighting for their own personal beliefs...Furthermore you completely ignored my argument, but whatever, selective reading ftw!

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The nature of man is exactly that... The nature of Man. It's the Man's tendencies before the influence of society. Looking at World History there's many cases of Man conducting Sacrifices, Gentrification, Mortal Bloodsport, etc.. Surely you can't say that every single person involved in every instance of such things is mentally unstable.. can you? I mean, we all know Hitler had issues... But every single soldier who carried out his orders as well?

I also didn't ignore your argument. I'm just not ignorant enough to try to argue Psychiatry with someone when I admittedly know nothing about it.

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Originally Posted by bene317

Fair enough. So have the 1st Cavalry division and the 3rd Armored Cavalry regiment moved? Honestly I don't keep up with those kinds of things...

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1st Cav is still here, though they are not an Armored Regiment and 3rd ACR is located here though they're only about the size of a Brigade. 20th Engineers is here, and they are not an Armored Regiment. There's various other detachments stationed here as well.. none large enough to warrant being mentioned. 1st Cav and 20th Engineers are the majority of those stationed here.

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Originally Posted by bene317

But that doesn't mean you won't make a lot of broad generalizations about it, right?
So basically mass shooters and murders/serial killers are normal people? lol

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There's a difference between a Mass Murderer and a Serial Killer. It's very possible to commit acts of Mass Murder without being mentally unstable. It needs only to be socially acceptable.

Lincoln authorized the burning of Civilian Houses and the Killing of Civilians who quartered Southern Soldiers during the course of the Civil War. Yet he's viewed as a hero. Do you think he had to be insane to make those orders? Do you think the soldiers that followed those orders were insane?

Alright, this is my last post in this topic.

Jest:
Comparing the actions of a soldier in the context of a war and the actions of a mass shooter doesn't work, its apples and oranges. The psychology is completely different, I would have thought this to be obvious on some level.

To seek psychiatric care, one has to be aware on some level that they need it; the very definition of psychosis makes this virtually impossible, perhaps he knew there was something wrong but his mind was clearly not functioning in a manner that would allow him to recognize his own behavior patterns as dangerous--if this man, this mass shooter had been under psychiatric care then surely they would have had some inkling of what was going on, unless the therapists were completely inept which is sadly a possibility no matter where they are. My point was that more preventative care is needed, especially given the general attitude towards psychiatric care in all the military branches. By saying that he could seek help whenever he wanted you are implying that he should know or does know that he needs help--that he has accurately diagnosed himself, see my point?

I don't see what "gentrification" has to do with what we're talking about, though being from Chicago I am very aware of it as a problem. Did you mean "genocide"? The phrase "human nature" ignores the complexity of subject formulation--it universalizes the conditions under which we come to understand ourselves, our identities. Humans, while sharing some commonalities--mostly coming from our shared evolutionary biology, live in different contexts (cultural, social) that influence their behavior in different ways, that much is unavoidable. "Human nature" is a totalizing term, a sweeping generalization that ends up eliding more than it actually explains...

In terms of the info on who is based at Ft. Hood, thank you and I stand corrected.

Actually there is a difference between a serial killer and a mass murderer but I'm not sure I understand the difference that you are suggesting. Generally speaking mass murderers kill in large (relatively speaking) numbers in single episodes--they also generally take their own lives in some fashion, but not always. Serial killers on the other hand tend to draw out their killings, often playing 'games' their victims--like hunting them, stalking them; multiple killings done according to a pattern over a spread out period of time, with no immediate motive other than to kill for some sort of pleasure--that's what characterizes a serial killer (there are other factors, but this isn't the place to get into those).
Again, the example of Lincoln makes his classification as either impossible because of the context of war--however, as we know war doesn't mean that all bets are off, the US has tried and executed many war criminals over the years.

Edit:
Fuck it, I don't want to get in trouble like I do over at GEAY.