fluckit magnetism thread...

[Demzilla]

we are all aware of whats going on at the kids table and the hardcore grinding system issues...

basically in a nut shell hc grinding tosses you off, over, and under in a inconsistent manner...



this thread is to discuss...
WHAT YOU THINK IS A POSSIBLE SOLUTION TO THE ISSUE....






demz...

there some talk regarding wallride magnetism and transitions issues...
while i do see this as a possible trouble maker..
i do not think these aspects need to be altered in order to fix the hc grinding inconsistencies...

the issue itself is the magnetism to me...
because its there in the first place......
it helps or tries to help decide what the player was trying to accomplish..
this "help" is technically not needed in my opinion...

i suggest getting rid of the magnetism as a whole..

its not needed...
it doesnt affect other systems...(walls and trans)....
and most importantly..
it puts the outcome of the grind entirely in the hands of the player...

take it out and no one has reasons to argue other than it being difficult...
take it out and we cant blame the game...
take it out and allow more approaches to grinding other then a set "open window" of opportunity....


NO ON MAGNETISM!...

[bohemian]

as the wallride magnetism posed no threat to ungrindables in s1/s2 i thk we can rule that out.

but i have no idea how this engine is coded and works, so i have no suggestion :/

but a no magnetism, only grind splines situation sounds good, if doable.

[Bud Muhnquai]

From my knowledge of making games (I was a play tester for 3 years working on xbox, ps2, ps3 and 360) it looks to me like this 'grind repulsion' is caused by the collision check that's made when the deck gets close to a rail or ledge - whilst it's not actually repelling you or pushing you away, it appears to be. The collision check spots the two objects getting close to each other and stops them meeting.

If the collision check was ramped down a bit, this might not be so bad. It would require a patch, obvs, but that might not ever happen. I think as long as you're lining things up right, it shouldn't really be an issue. That said, I've pulled in at some pretty oblique angles and nailed the grind, so perhaps it's more related to certain objects, height, speed etc.

I could, of course, be completely wrong about this theory, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

I think its a shame that after years of wanting a more realistic grinding solution, the fix that's been put in place has actually sort of broken it more. I'm still totally flucking stoked by what I've seen of S3 and I stand by my initial impression - this is the best skate has ever ever been, for me.

[knexzor]

I've lurked that thread very hard the last couple of days...

People have had all kinds of theories but as far as I've seen, nobody really knows what the problem is. Theories about wallride, magnetism and whatnot, we still don't know what causes the problems.
The only way I see this problem getting solved is a developer indetifying the problem. When (read if) a dev can confirm the problem, he'd have to ask us how to deal with it...
Otherwise, the devs would most likely apply a fix that they think is what we want and we'd end up with other issues.

I like your suggestion about no magnetism Demz, but the thing is we don't even know if that is doable. Hence, we'd need confirmation from the devs on what is going on...

Edit:
excuse my vague/bad writing, I'm not good at expressing technical opinions in written english.
here's what I'm talking about

I would just really like someone from BB to pop in and say whether or not this was intentional or a side effect of changing the physics for hardcore. But more importantly, I would like to know if it is going to be fixed or if it even can be fixed. If it can't be fixed I'd just like to know so I can start adjusting to how things are. Might even stick to normal mode. I might be the odd man out on that, but if it's more fun for me to play that way then that's what I'm doing.

[mamba12]

i'm gonna go out on a limb and say someone will complain whether it's magnetism, anti-magnetism, no magnetism, etc.

that being said, i'm going to play and adapt to whatever they give us. i really haven't had too much of a problem with the new system, my main beef comes with tilted object dropper grinds. they seem 10 times harder than the in-game handrails.

so do what you want EA. I'm going to have fun playing, because that's what i'm supposed to do with a video game

[heshfield]

Solution: "Sim mode"; where everything is pretty much the same but with the adjusted physics for pops.
Trash "Hardcore" mode altogether if its going to introduce so many issues and be just code on top of code. The low pop in HC mode is great; thats all it really needs.

[okami16]

seems fine to me.
no adjustments nessecary. although they might improve it, it is a demo after all
dont they usually say that "this is not final product " statement. and if not they've got like 2-3 weeks to fix whatever problems people somehow seem to find.

i'm going to play and adapt to whatever they give us.

Exactly.

[Roccityroller]

i don't know... you can't have NO magnetism.. you have to reach a point where the game realizes that the player SHOULD be grinding and, I think, that the time of contact is too late. Things are delayed, animations-wise many times in this game, allways has... look at some of the board bounce flip tricks from s1/s2...

so if the game isn't realizing that you're trying to grind until you actually grind, you'll run into issues with things acting ungrindable, even if only for a moment, it will be enough to screw up the animation.

Idk, i like the way s3 is... people aren't going to be happy either way. it does add variability and difficulty to tricks, which is what we wanted. It'll add replay value because we'll be spending more time on things and things won't become "automatic". Lets be honest... when the game drops, people will have a handle on the approaches in hardcore in a month or two... and everyone will be used to it, no magnetism or not. And things will become automatic. If the game adds variability, whether real or glitchy, then the game DOESN'T become automatic.

I don't want automatic skate. I feel like that's how S2 was for the last 3 months. i would think of what i wanted to do and within some time, i would do it, regardless.

[pawnluvguitarist]

from my thoughts thread
http://www.skatefluckit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3968

"I think if instead of pushing you away you should just land in the grind then bail, and that should only happen if you were way off. That and give us more windows of opportunity for getting to grind and not being forced to line up in a certain fashion."

[Ebrice]

we are all aware of whats going on at the kids table and the hardcore grinding system issues...

basically in a nut shell hc grinding tosses you off, over, and under in a inconsistent manner...



this thread is to discuss...
WHAT YOU THINK IS A POSSIBLE SOLUTION TO THE ISSUE....






demz...

there some talk regarding wallride magnetism and transitions issues...
while i do see this as a possible trouble maker..
i do not think these aspects need to be altered in order to fix the hc grinding inconsistencies...

the issue itself is the magnetism to me...
because its there in the first place......
it helps or tries to help decide what the player was trying to accomplish..
this "help" is technically not needed in my opinion...

i suggest getting rid of the magnetism as a whole..

its not needed...
it doesnt affect other systems...(walls and trans)....
and most importantly..
it puts the outcome of the grind entirely in the hands of the player...

take it out and no one has reasons to argue other than it being difficult...
take it out and we cant blame the game...
take it out and allow more approaches to grinding other then a set "open window" of opportunity....


NO ON MAGNETISM!...

hmm, i'm just going purely on some "higher" thinking, so i could be COMPLETELY wrong... feel free to classify me as an idiot...but i think there is a certain small amount of grind magnetism required for grinds to work without everything being an ungrindable...they need to "connect" the skater to the rail to be able to sense the grind to help slide depending on what grind you're doing, how you hit it, etc....i think the hardcore grinding we have now is the smallest amount of magnetism we could possibly have without them having to use a totally different engine that would probably take a very long time or be impossible to make... if the "throwing away" issue isn't just a little glitch unrelated to the magnetism, I'm not sure what the hell they could do to fix it beside turn UP the magnetism a little.. if my theory is correct, that is.

BTW, in no way is this fact or what i think is completely 100% correct...just kindof random logic that makes a lot of sense to me haha.

[schnavolda]

i just stumbled on this response from cuz about the whole situation. maybe not everybody has seen it at the kid's table.

So..here goes...

I am on the road doing Skate 3 biz. I literally have not been able to check the foirums regularly for a bit...

Sorry for the official delay in responding to the grind complaints in hardcore mode.

First, we are looking into it...and understand that the repel thing does happen sometimes. The physics guys explained it like this...by turning down the assist, it makes predicting the landing and intended landing all the more difficult. If the game cannot accurately predict the desired landing soon enough, the game will occassionally repel the skater to avoid other potentially larger glitchy "issues".

We have identified this and the smart guys have some ideas for fixes.

However, I did not state there will be a day 1 title update to fix this single issue. Unfortunately, without getting too deep into the technicalities of getting patches tested and approved, it simply isn't that easy.

We will try to fix it when we have an optimal solution but cannot make a promise as to exactly when that will be. (Fixing one thing has the potential to break other things, thus the need for us to take this step by step)

Fixing bugs, "issues" and complaints are prioritized and adressed on a priority basis. (Stee was on point with this)

I have explained and raised this hardcore grind issue with the team...and stated its importance to our core community. It is noted.

Thanks for your understanding and patience.

http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/15/507438.page

[jest118]

So.. Bud was pretty much on the money. It's a Collision Detection issue. Which means that it may be an issue within the code itself. Black Box may be able to find a work around.. but it's likely that the issue itself won't be 100% rectified until the next game.

Let's just hope that whatever work around they find makes the game feel/look like it's been 100% rectified.

[Bud Muhnquai]

So.. Bud was pretty much on the money.

Sig THAT.

My knowledge is ENDLESS. Basically, without those hit checks, you'd end up passing right through the rail.

[Monk]

i used to map/script Q3 engine games with gtkradiant 1.4 for call of duty and jedi academy... i dont know about the mapping with the new engines but i know in q3 engine youd make everything with simple brushes and add the textures onto it... there was also this thing called a clip brush.... basically a clip is an invisible brush that is placed on top of another brush as a barrier so to speak to prevent someone from crossing that area.... but it could also be scripted to pull someone towards it or push them away as well...... if there are clips in the game that could be the issue: making the clips smaller .... like i said i dont know about havok or euphoria.... but in q3 that would solve that problem. outdated nonetheless... clipping is most likely a thing of the past.

[xx LiL sUpRa xx]

from my thoughts thread
"I think if instead of pushing you away you should just land in the grind then bail, and that should only happen if you were way off. That and give us more windows of opportunity for getting to grind and not being forced to line up in a certain fashion."

this ^^^

[pawnluvguitarist]

I still think if instead of pushing you away you should just land in the grind then bail. But other than that i really don't have any issues with the magnetism. I think after a while everyone will get used to it and be fine with it.

Its not like you can't do grinds on hardcore that you couldn't do in S2, it just takes more precision, more skill. Not having the magnetism opens far more doors than it closes.

I've also tested out many grind angles, and distances. I found that no matter what the angle or distance from the ledge grinds were still possible with the correct set up.

I tried grinding the moveable rails going down the bank, and yes i did find that in some cases if you approached straight on it did repel you. But there were many approaches/angles that worked just fine, and consistently fine.

[Slamooh]

I m 100 % positive some tricks are now not doable (it was already the case in S2 but here more tricks are not doable).
some spin out cant work

[bene317]

doesn't exactly get you excited about the game--that and the fact that back blunts are unbelievably ugly...
I'm sure they'll fix the grinds though...

[xx LiL sUpRa xx]

the only thing wrong i see would be the blunts
like everybody else is saying
hopefully there'll be a patch or something for it

[EternalRewind]

When I first started playing this demo and noticing the push away effect I thought it only happened maybe 1 out of every 20 tries...But after spending a lot of time trying to nail lines with style, realistic angle and lowered pop Ive come to realize that the push happens all the time...Some say instead of getting pushed away you should bail, I say I wouldn't bail, if I watch my replay I can clearly see time and time again that Im not even close to the ledge, I have plenty of room between the board and the ledge/rail, I shouldn't be pushed away or bail...This push away effect is the biggest problem when trying to do lines, I rarely over shoot a grind, I either land my grind or I get pushed away...My theory for this happening is the games avoidance detection, its always been there its just that now that the mag is lowered, the game has a harder time figuring out what to do...Remember how you can do a kickflip or ollie north near a wall and you will get pushed away,that and just doing a ollie to close to a object will push you away.. That's the problem here imo.....

I hope the patch solves this without increasing the magnetism..Fingers crossed

[Slamooh]

+1 eternal

it happens all the time to me.... you can deal with it when you only do single tricks... lines are fucking annoying now sadly

[pawnluvguitarist]

im thinkin the opposite, the more i play, the easier its getting, the less im getting pushed away.

[Slamooh]

im thinkin the opposite, the more i play, the easier its getting, the less im getting pushed away.

the game is not adapting, so i guess you found the perfect spot but its still there and a narrow path is not skateboarding to me
We'll have to find that perfect spot though because i see no revolution coming in the full game.

[pawnluvguitarist]

I still live it the way it is now, so rewarding, have to really pay attention and be precise. I love the challenge, yeah it's not the same type of challenge as IRL, but it's still tough and rewarding.

A thing to remember is that it is simulated grind difficulty. We don't balance grinds in Skate, so we get all the difficulty up front on the approach.

I like the system as it is, hopefully it keeps improving, would be cool to balance grinds eventually